PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
Laney Goff: Welcome back to season three of Untamed Social, the podcast where we cut through the fluff and get real about what it actually takes to see success on social media. I'm your host, Laney Goff, and today we're diving into one of the most misunderstood metrics when it comes to social media, which would be engagement.
Uh, every brand wants it, every marketer chases it but, what does meaningful engagement actually look like? And more importantly, how do you get it? So to help us unpack this today, I am joined by Miss Lauren. Lauren is a seasoned social media consultant who specializes in Facebook, Instagram, and blog strategy, correct?
Lauren Mikov: Yep.
Laney Goff: That's awesome. So she's helped brands across many industries build engaged communities that drive real traffic. And she does that by using smart content. And what I love about Lauren's work is she blends storytelling with data-driven insights and strategy to create content that actually connects and resonates with an audience.
So welcome Lauren. Thank you so much for joining us.
Lauren Mikov: Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.
Laney Goff: It is. It is. Okay. So. Without further ado, I'm gonna jump right in and just kind of tackle the, the elephant for many brands, which is you have these brands who are posting day in and day out, but they're still getting crickets when it comes to conversation.
There's nothing happening in their comments or their dms. So from your perspective, what are some of the most common reasons that brands are experiencing low engagement, even when they're posting regularly?
Lauren Mikov: Sure thing. So there's a few different reasons that I often see. Um, I often work with small to medium sized brands that might not have a big budget, but for the bigger brands that have a big following and have those low engagement numbers, one thing that I often see is that they either bought or advertised for irrelevant followers.
Um, and that leads to algorithm death. So when you have this huge audience but nobody's responding, then you're just gonna slowly trickle down the algorithm because Meta or whoever decides, oh, well they've got this big audience, but no one's engaging, so we're just gonna show it to fewer and fewer people.
So you see this gradual decline, decline in reach, as well as that low engagement number. The other flip side for small businesses, medium size, whatever size, um, is that they're putting out content that's really irrelevant or uninteresting to their followers. And that's the tricky one. That's more empirical.
So it's, it's, um, there can be a couple different reasons for that. Um, often it's because the, the brand is using it as a megaphone and not a conversation.
They're, they're putting out content that feels really salesy, really branded. Whereas lately we're seeing the algorithm, the things that are doing well are very authentic.
They're very more like what your friend would post. And so people wanna see things that feel more real to them. Um, and, and, and so we see that sort of flat. Um, the other thing is, um, brands that put out content that is super flat, that doesn't invite engagement, it's just speaking out into the void. Um, you know, it's, it's holding up a sign in the public square and hoping someone comes up and talks to you versus coming up and introducing yourself and creating conversation that way.
So those are the most common reasons that I see.
Laney Goff: That's actually really interesting because something that I've been posting a lot about on LinkedIn recently is how a lot of brands are just too close to their content and they're not looking at it from a place of consumerism.
They're posting what they think everybody wants to see and they're not putting their shoe, themselves in the shoes of their clients or potential customers.
And I feel like that is such a big no-no, and it's really easy to get trapped in that, in my opinion.
Lauren Mikov: Yeah.
Laney Goff: So I, do you have a suggestion, like if this is, you know, kind of off topic, but do you have a suggestion for people who find themselves in those positions?
Lauren Mikov: Um, one thing that can help is to, to look at the content that is performing well and think about why that might be. Uh, I had a client recently who realized their stuff was looking super branded. And then when we sort of did that audit, we realized things with faces, people's faces, um, you know, those individual, um, this client kind of struggles because they have some, um, personal rights, you know, stuff they don't, they, they can't show. Um, pictures of their, their customers or videos, um, or their clients and people that they serve. It's a nonprofit. Um, and so it's kind of tricky to show people, but we realize we have other people that we can show pictures of. We can show pictures and videos of staff and volunteers and things like that.
Um, so it's like get creative with the type of content that's performing well and, um, and think about how you can really show that personal face and put that personal spin on it. Um, and then you can also reach out to those engaged constituents that you have, people that are engaging that, your superheroes, you know, the people that are always liking and commenting.
You can say, hey, what, what's working for you? What do you think feels good? And, and what do you wanna see from us? Um, and so really digging in and creating those, you know, back in the, the old marketing agency, uh, days, we would say like those focus groups. But you can really create that at any level, um, of an organization and really dig into your consumers or your clients, uh, your audience, and to see what they wanna see. Um, and then also having a look at your competitors or, um, your partners in the, uh, in the space that you're working in and seeing what's working for them. Uh, that's a really great way to do it, um, to kind of audit other people who are, who are similar to you and seeing what kind of content is, is working well for them.
Laney Goff: Yeah, you actually like nailed that on the head for what I was thinking. Um, and actually answered my next question. So, thank you for that. Um, but I think you're right that, you know, one of the big steps is like, it's not a, a bad decision to have somebody outside of your organization review the content and just give you that perspective.
It's something that I just had a conversation with one of our consulting clients on, is like, if you've got somebody who like knows your brand, but you don't know for sure if they've like committed to being a follower or investing in the product or service. Just shoot it to them if they're a friend and just say, hey, like, what stands out about this content?
And be honest about it. And what would capture your attention more? Um, I think just like having that boldness and, and doing that is a better way to understand your audience and to actually create content that resonates with them. So I completely agree.
Lauren Mikov: And I think also sometimes, especially for those small and medium sized businesses, they often don't think of things as content. They don't have that content mindset. Whereas we as social media marketers and, and influencers are really good at this as well, everything is content, right? And so having that attitude of just filming, recording, whatever you can do on a daily basis, and then mining the cute little pieces for content. You might have, I, I had a client this morning I was just on a meeting with who had a photo of somebody pulling up a trash can, um, at their location. And it was like, this might be content. I don't know, we're using it for an internal newsletter, but like, what do you think?
And it's like, yeah, that could, I can spin that. Like that's something that.
Laney Goff: You could spin anything.
Lauren Mikov: Like we can definitely incorporate that. People love to see people's faces and to hear the personal stories of what's going on day in and day out of the business versus businesses that think of social media only from a marketing perspective rather than from a content and engagement, um, and, you know, telling those personal story perspective, they might, you know, only think about what they might put in a TV ad or, or newspaper ad. It's like social media is not that, like it's telling the stories, it's creating that it's, it's less, you know, thinking of social as marketing. Yes.
That's one thing. It can do marketing tasks, but it's also engagement and, and thinking of it as creating your community and really capitalizing on your community that you have out there that wants to engage with you.
Laney Goff: Definitely, I think that it's, um, a big, uh, thing to notice what, how much you're promoting. You can't go into social media, with just promote, promote, promote. It really needs to be like the smallest percentage of the actual content that you're sharing in order for you to build trust. I mean, marketing in itself is just so different these days, and I think that's a big, big misconception is that a lot of brands get on, like you said, and they just wanna promote their product or their service, and they're missing out on actually building a foundation with their audience to get them ready and willing to invest in it.
Lauren Mikov: Exactly.
Laney Goff: Yeah. Okay. So engagement really, I mean, in my opinion, is a metric obviously. Um, but it can look like a lot of different things. 'Cause you have different engagement metrics. You've got likes, comments, saves, shares, dms, like all of these different things. Because not all numbers are created equal in my mind.
Um, you may have a different perspective, but for me, I feel like sometimes metrics don't tell the full story, uh, of what's going on. And that's something that we sometimes have to walk through with our clients is you're looking at these numbers, but let's consider the full picture and the full story of what's going on here.
Are there, is engagement always a sign of success in your opinion, or are there some vanity metrics that can be misleading?
Lauren Mikov: I think it depends. I, I always think of it from a goals perspective, what is the organization wanting to get out of their social media? Are they wanting to get, um, more brand recognition? Are they wanting to communicate, you know, to tell their story? Um, are they wanting to drive traffic for sales? So if we take it back to their high level, 10,000 foot goal first, then we can decide which metrics are important to them. Um, whenever I think about vanity metrics, it's always likes, right? It's always that follower people, people are like, I want 10,000 new followers. And it's like, well, what does that get you? Does that, you know, is that local traffic?
Is that depending on, you know, who you are and, and what you want out of your social, that might be good. You know, some people need 10,000 followers to get a book deal or something like that. Um, but if you are trying to drive traffic for sales, that might not necessarily be as good as, or if you're, if you're trying to, um, you know, to raise, uh, awareness for a local event or something like that, um, that might not be as, as good of a goal for you.
So we're looking at those, um, those metrics and what they're doing. And then we also have to keep in mind the algorithm, right? So, um, these days comments are gold. Uh, across Meta, LinkedIn, um, you know, that's what we're seeing that's generating additional reach is when things are getting comments, comments and shares.
So those are the, the first two that I look at. Um, likes and reactions and those things are, are great and nice to have, but if that's all you're getting, you're not gonna get that algorithm bump that you would from a comment. Um, so that's where I, I kind of look at comments and shares first, and then up to the next level of, of engagement.
But if a business is really wanting traffic to drive sales, if they're a, a physical product or, um, or a service that they're trying to drive sales toward, you know, that click through is, is the golden one for them. So it really depends on what their goals are, um, as far as what engagement metrics matter the most to them.
Laney Goff: Yeah. And conversions can mean something completely different to one brand from another. You're so right about that. Um, so a lot of times and thinking about how you really advocate for storytelling. What ways do you think brands are better off incorporating, well, maybe not better off, but what are the best ways for brands to incorporate storytelling, in your opinion, to help drive that engagement?
And does it really have like a parallel to it?
Lauren Mikov: Yeah, it's, it's creating opportunities to speak with, uh, your community. So, uh, instead of speaking at the community and telling the story exclusively, you're giving them an opportunity to um, to share in that experience with you, whatever the story you're telling is. Um, it's creating opportunities for them to engage, um, and to kind of connect personally with that story that you're telling.
Right. So it's, um, for, for uh, um, my nonprofit, I have quite a few nonprofit clients in sort of the family services, homelessness and housing region. Um. Because they're, they're, they have a few different goals. It's like the people that they serve, the volunteer community and the donor community, it's creating opportunities for them to talk about why they support this cause for the donors and volunteers side of things.
Um, and then talking, sometimes we do have the people that they serve as well, interacting and talking about their experience. So it's creating those moments that it's not just talking about here's our, our services, here's what we do, and here's why you should donate to us. It's creating a opportunity for people to share in that experience of telling that story of the organization and, and how, so that someone can react with this is how they helped me, this is why I donate to this cause and this is why I volunteer.
So it's creating those moments of opportunity for storytelling with, instead of just at.
Laney Goff: Agree and, and I feel like that's really how you drive conversation. That's really how you get, because a lot of times what you'll see is, especially if you're a consumer and you're just scrolling and you come across a video you like and you start to look at the comments and read through them, you've got people who are engaging together.
Sharing their own stories and having their own conversation where the brand doesn't even need to come in. They're driving the engagement all on their own, and I think that's gold. Um, and something that a lot of people miss out on, like you said, it's, it's more than just telling your brand story. It's about how can you make your story relatable and how do you create content out of that that invites them in to have that conversation with you and everybody else who's viewing the content. Um, that's really great advice in my opinion. And something that a lot of brands lack sometimes.
Lauren Mikov: They do and, and sometimes when they come at it, they think of I'm just gonna ask questions at the end of my caption and, you know, and then if it's already a low engagement, that gets crickets and it looks bad, right? So it's, it's, how can we phrase this caption or this, um, this ask for engagement in a way that doesn't feel like a yes or no question.
Um, and it doesn't feel like if it, um, the, the other trick that I do is if this doesn't get a response, it's not gonna look bad too. Um, so it's, it's phrasing your caption or phrasing your call to action in such a way that, um, that it would be okay if it didn't get any responses, but also that it, it still spurs that engagement that you're looking for.
It's tricky.
Laney Goff: It, it, it is tricky. It really is. Um, and I feel like every brand is different and like what it, it kind of requires to get there to do that, but you bringing up, you know, also engaging with the audience in itself. Um, a lot of people only think about the content like before it goes live or right when it goes live.
So maybe let's talk about community management. How important is it in boosting engagement? And what does good community management actually look like?
Lauren Mikov: For sure. So, um, the, when I'm thinking about even someone that I don't work with, I'm not working with yet, but I'm thinking about pitching them. One of the things I could do, I do is scroll through their page and see if
they've got comments and engagements that are going unanswered. So that's your first, that's sort of like the low hanging fruit is making sure that you are engaging with every engagement.
Um, that's, that's, you know, the low bar to, to, to leap over. Um, but then if you also think about engagement and community management from not just an internal perspective, but an external perspective as far as outreach goes. A lot of people think engagement, um, and community management is just what's happening on your accounts.
Um, but the next level, if you wanna take it even further, is to do, to use those profiles and, um, to do outreach engagement. So commenting and interacting with posts from, uh, from not just from other brands and organizations, but also with people that would be the type of people that you would want to attract because that helps train the algorithm to show, to show your content to those same sort of people.
Um, so if you are on Instagram, uh, going out and doing that type of outreach engagement before you actually hit post actually increases your visibility of that post to that type of person in the feed um, when it goes out, uh, especially since we're seeing things like reels are going to both followers and especially to non followers, um, that helps train the algorithm to show it to who you want to.
Laney Goff: Yeah, I think that's gold right there. I mean, and something that, um, we actually, we don't do it with every client 'cause every client is different. But some, one of the services that we do offer is that when it comes to community management and doing the hashtag research and things like that, to find your audience, like you said, it could be other brands or industry or people in your industry, but it could also just be those everyday creators who fit the bill for who you're trying to get in front of and you just showing as a brand that you care is going to do nothing but show success on that side of things for conversions as far as people being invested in your brand.
Um, the less involved you are with them, the less they're willing to not only follow you, but more than that, share your content, share your products and your offers. And I think that that's really how you take it to the next level with getting business and, and driving those conversions. So I love that. Um.
Too many brands, we need more brands to do this. And actually, I do think it's gotten better. Um, I can't, I, I love TikTok and I'm on TikTok a lot and I feel like brands are really like driving home with this and they're showing up in the comments of these viral videos that are just like everyday situations and they're finding ways to apply their product or service to the circumstance and people are noticing it does not go unnoticed.
Um, so I think that's definitely something that any brand should consider if they're not already doing that.
Lauren Mikov: I agree for sure. Yeah.
Laney Goff: Awesome. Okay, so. I know you're big on creating content that sparks interaction and not just, you know, passive scrolling. So how can brands build content that actually invites participation?
You touched on it a little bit about, you know, not necessarily putting just one simple question, but how can they easily, if you've got maybe a couple of tips of, you know, calls to actions or things like that, that they can include to invite participation and not just consumption.
Lauren Mikov: Yeah, so it, if you think about it from a perspective of, um, creating opportunities for like quick, like something, everything is so fast these days. So, um, you know, one of the, the videos that I had go viral was, uh, did you see it? Did you see that in the video? Um, just yes or no. Like I talked about not saying yes or no, but, um, but that's an easy one, um, to ask if, if they noticed something in the video.
Something that you, you can take two seconds. Um, because people have such a short attention span, I think brands often are used to, to having such longer form content, but it's like 10, 10 seconds or less. Um, is, is what it is. So finding, um, finding those ways to, to have that short form video driven content that, um, that sparks interest. You know, we're, we're talking about three second hook at the beginning of a reel. Um, and the question might be as basic as, did you see that? Did you notice? Um, other tactics that are kind of played out a little bit, but watch to the end for x. Um, you know, and, and, hey, did you, did you notice that thing?
Um, really short asks and really simple, you know, making it as simple as possible for someone to engage with you. Um, but then also if you think about on the flip side, the longer form, if you're telling a consistent story, if you hook them at the beginning and then they watch further on, um, creating a way to, to build on what, on the story you're telling.
So if it's someone telling a story of, of how they interacted with the organization, then that's going to spur a story for someone else to tell how they, um, are engaged with that organization too. Like this helped me because why, how did it help you? Um, so for brands especially that have that small, dedicated following, that's a great way to, to start that engagement going.
Um, because people like to add on to stories. So if you think about it from a storytelling perspective, it's, it's creating those moments, um, where people can add on to an additional, you know, story of how, how it's helping them. Um, so, you know, thinking about an organization that's telling a story about, you know, volunteers, like I mentioned, volunteers and donors.
Um, and, and it's like, why? Here's my why. You know, thinking about why they engage with the organization. So if, if I'm telling the story, then someone else might be in inspired to tell this story as well. Um, I do this also for clients that get, um, that have like physical locations that get good Yelp and, and Google reviews.
Um, you know, it's like if you have, you know, a story like this. We'd love to hear it, that kind of thing. Um, so it's building those moments that people can add on and, and keep that snowball rolling. Collaborative storytelling is huge. Um, something I do with my kids and it's something I do with my clients too.
Laney Goff: Yeah, with the kids for sure. And I love how you, you gave two examples, like one with it being in the beginning with the attention grabbing hook and then further along into the video if it's longer form. And I just, I know that one of my tactics, like throughout the years, has always been that first three seconds and saying something as simple as like, am I the only one or... and then I'll put some sort of thought that I have that maybe go against the grain, goes against the grain or you know, is maybe not the common perspective on something, and you'll find those people who actually do agree with you on that and that helps to like boost that conversation as well. Um, so I love that.
I think that's great. Um, and excellent, excellent advice. And to be honest with you. This whole episode is packed with a lot of insights. Uh, thank you for breaking down the real strategy behind engagement and reminding us that connection matters more than just numbers. And I think that's a big thing for brands to understand.
So before we go, can you tell our listeners where they can learn more about you and the work that you're doing?
Lauren Mikov: Of course. Uh, so the first place that you can, uh, check me out is my website, thesocialstage.com. Uh, and then you can also find me on
LinkedIn, uh, Lauren, L-A-U-R-E-N, Mikov, M-I-K-O-V. And um, I'm there and you can check out some testimonials from some of my clients, uh, I don't post, I will say on, on my own socials and, and LinkedIn.
I'm, I'm definitely the, the cobbler who needs new shoes as far as that goes because I'm so focused day and day out on, on my clients that I don't get to around to my own socials as much. But, um, but I'm there and definitely shoot me an email or a, a LinkedIn message. Um, if you'd like to connect.
Laney Goff: Definitely, and you're not alone in that. There are, uh, listen, we are just getting back on the horse, okay? Because we were there and it's hard whenever you're in it day to day, doing it for other people. So you're definitely not the only one. Um, Lauren, thank you again so much for joining us on Untamed Social and for everyone listening, remember good engagement isn't something that just happens. It's earned through strategy, community, and showing up intentionally. So if you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and follow along for more real conversations like this, and we'll see you next time.
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